Dylan's "Borrowings"

Subject: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:20 pm

Is there a site that has a fairly comprehensive list of the sources, lyrical and melodic, for Dylan's songs?

Or can anyone tell me the sources behing It's Alright Ma?

_________________
This isn't the 'so called' Warbleshinny Mastadon. Over

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:38 am

Thaddeus Ramone wrote:

Or can anyone tell me the sources behing It's Alright Ma?

Line 1. appears to be a reference to the 1940 novel "Darkness at Noon" by the Hungarian-born British novelist Arthur Koestler, if that helps.

_________________
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas

Number of posts: 358 Registration date: 2008-05-19

Love, Love, Love. Love, Love, Love....
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
There's nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game.
It's easy.

Advertizing signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life goes on all around you.

Dylan wrote these words as a response/rebuttal to John Lennon's naive yet arrogant ambition that perhaps he could change the world and human nature by among other things sloganeering. Amazingly, Dylan wrote the response/rebuttal years before Lennon set out on his crusade.

Love, Love, Love,...All you need is Love.
Give peace a chance.

Lennon, "..i'm a revolutionary artist. My art is dedicated to change.

There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time.
It's easy.

Lennon wrote these words as a response/rebuttal to Dylan's Saved album, and Dylan, although a Jew, turning to Jesus Christ for salvation. Amazingly, Lennon wrote those words years before the release of the Saved album.

It's true...all of it.

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:05 pm

There's now an Arthur Koestler Chair for Paranormal Studies at Edinburgh University.

_________________
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:19 pm

There might, plausibly, be a connection between the "oceanic feeling" Koestler described as experiencing whilst under sentence of death as a "Communist spy" in a jail cell during the Spanish Civil War and the shape of Bob's song.

I'd be very surprised if Dylan wasn't familiar with Koestler.

_________________
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:52 am

Thank's Eddie. I'd say that you are right. Dylan seems to have been influenced to some degree by him.
But is It's Alright ma an original Dylan tune? I mean basically his. As in not stolen outright.
Is the tune and melody based on some other compositon? Are any large chunks of the lyrics 'borrowed'?

In a couple of interviews Dylan has referenced this song as being....organically dylan, for want of a better term.

_________________
This isn't the 'so called' Warbleshinny Mastadon. Over

Number of posts: 96 Registration date: 2009-06-17

Eddie wrote:

There's now an Arthur Koestler Chair for Paranormal Studies at Edinburgh University.

I had dinner with the first holder of the Arthur Koestler Chair once. Fascinating man.

His studies had two conclusions at that stage. First, any tests of ESP showed that everyone performed slightly better than statistical, and that no-one performed better than anyone else. So his conclusions were that there were no paranormals, because we all were very slightly capable of ESP.

And he refused to answer any questions in public about Uri Geller. Reason: any criticism that got back to Mr Geller would have resulted in a writ.

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:29 pm

Thaddeus Ramone wrote:

Is there a site that has a fairly comprehensive list of the sources, lyrical and melodic, for Dylan's songs?

Or can anyone tell me the sources behing It's Alright Ma?

I just Googled "It's Alright Ma" and up a discussion of this issue popped.

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:15 pm

_________________
The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without.

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:39 am

Which site Mr. Mclaughlin? I'm not really looking for a discussion. Just a site that lays out a fair amount of Dylan's borrowings.

_________________
This isn't the 'so called' Warbleshinny Mastadon. Over

Gender: Number of posts: 461 Registration date: 2009-06-15

Apart from the opening 'Darkness at the break of noon' line, I find it hard to see where Dylan 'borrowed' for It's Alright Ma.

_________________
Lava bread facepacks: you'll live to 110.

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:05 pm

"find yourself at war.."

In context, the war here is a subjective, internal one.

The Psychomachia of the Latin author Prudentius was the first in a centuries-long literary and dramatic tradition presenting such internal conflict.

_________________
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:28 pm

precinct14 wrote:

Apart from the opening 'Darkness at the break of noon' line, I find it hard to see where Dylan 'borrowed' for It's Alright Ma.

I couldn't find any apparent thefts either. I think It's Alright Ma is, actually, one of his own.

_________________
This isn't the 'so called' Warbleshinny Mastadon. Over

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Remember Eloise?

"My favorite word is pas de quoi," announces Eloise, "which is oh it's
quite all right, I'm sure that you didn't mean to crush my hand in the
door, even though it is bleeding and practically throbbing with pain
it's quite all right, it doesn't matter."

_________________
I don't do it for the money, babe. I do it to entertain people.-- Susan Boyle

Subject: Re: Dylan's "Borrowings" Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:13 pm

Thaddeus Ramone wrote:

. I think It's Alright Ma is, actually, one of his own.

And one of his best!