Mellencamp: unless you work for the Australian departement that deals with this sort of situation, I assume that it's not up to you to decide what has to happen.

ISN's situation is a very complex one and she has had the remarkable courage to talk of her own mistakes on this site even before she started speaking of things other people have done. That's very courageous and extremely difficult if you ask me.

This might suprise you, but even people who have a hard time getting through in life love their childeren.
The fact that ISN and most likely also her ex-partner probably genuinely love Torin - and that he, for better or for worse, in return most likely also loves his parents - never arrises in your cold judgemental reasoning.

When I was still in school I didn't an internship in what most people would probably call a fosterhome - most childeren there came from disfunctional families, if I remember correctly none were orphans. These childeren sometimes had a rather unpleasant time when they spend the weekend with (one of) their parents, but they would litteraly go nuts when their parents didn't pick them up for one reason or another.

So I don't think it's very usefull to start attacking ISN so viciously and personaly here on this site.
She's obviously going through a difficult phase in her life. There's no need for any of us to make it even worse for her.

I dunno, M - I dunno if you don't get it, or don't care whether you get it or not. To say again what's been said a few times now, people are asking you to take into account the effect of your opinion on someone working thro a difficult situation. Heedlessness of consequennces of your expression of opinion on someone else's state of mind and meotions is in itself cruel and moree than a bit thoughtless. As an old boss once said to me - it was long ago - "Think, before you ink." OK? Just hang out a while longer, you'll get it, I hope - John

We can always go back to the original thread-topic and bore everybody to death....

(Only kidding - I've got me long rifle unrusted....)

You probably move too fast for me. But do you think the analogy of God as Watchmaker has anything to it?

Thanks Andy - eloquent as usual

I've been ignoring this thread because it's called "A reasonable denial of God" and denials or affirmations of God are tedious to me, but now it seems to have taken some sort of dramatic turn, but I can't sort it out because there are too many pages of posts. i blame Andy Neant for giving his thread such a tedious name. God, no God, who cares? I think they should rename God or No God "zzzzzzzzzzzzzz" cause metaphysics or anti-metaphysics is mucho boring. Why? YOU'RE A MOSTLY HAIRLESS APE WHO OVERESTIMATES YOUR CLEVERNESS BECAUSE YOU CAN TALK AND BUILD MOTORCYCLES BUT YOU ARE NOT SO CLEVER SO STOP TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE UNIVERSE BECAUSE YOU WON'T. YOUR ODDS OF DOING SO ARE ONLY SLIGHTLY BETTER THAN THOSE OF A CHIMPANZEE SO GIVE IT A REST. Stupid fucking simians.

Yes, I wonder too. Does that make us both boring misfits, or is there in fact a fairly-well-founded movementvamong humans to wonder a bit? I've heard of it, and it was called religion back then. And go to hell, Mr Bob Dylan, BTW.

I think I'm just a wondering wanderer!

There's a small church near us, called "The Searchers' Church." I hear they welcome wanderers.

- "There lives more faith in honest doubt
Believe me, than in half the creeds" - Alfred Lord Tennyson.