I know this sort of threads tend to stirr up trouble - John McLaughlin probably first went to search his longrifle to shoot me before he even opened this thread! - but I believe most members of this site can live with stirred up troubles.

Anyway, here's a humble attempt of mine to offer a reasonable argumentation to explain why I don't believe in God. I invite all the faithful to critically examen my feeble notions and / or make an attempt of their own to produce a reasonable argumentation for their point of view. I also invite all atheists to be every bit as critical - we may both not believe in God, but we might not believe in him for very different reasons.

So, why don't I believe in God? Well, not for one specific reason - I would almost add 'obviously' to that phrase - but for a number of reason which I happen to find reasonable:

1. The phenomenon which I would call something like the 'God paradox' - though it isn't really a paradox.
Billions of people on this world believe in a God or multiple Gods or a deity or a divine principle or something and yet - to the best of my knowledge there isn't even an attempt at formulating a universally acceptable definition of what 'God' is supposed to be.

Next time somebody tells you that he or she is a believer, that he or she believes in God, act very foolishly and ask "What do you mean by 'God'? What is (a) 'God'?"
Many will find it less than easy to answer that question and frankly, I personally tend to believe that the only true answer would be "What I've been told (by parents, teachers, spouses, etc.)"

I find it hard to believe in something if I don't even know what it is I should believe in.

2. There is a scientific principle that I find very intelligent: extraordinary theories or claims require extraordinary proof.

Is this the case for 'God'?

Of course, since we don't even know what 'God' is - at least: I, at this point in my life, must honestly admit that I could produce a valid and universally acceptable definition - it's pretty hard to determin what sort of proof we are looking for.

But allow me to make a humble attempt:
If there is one characteristic all religions and all Gods seem to have in common, it's their special relation with man. I don't know of a single religion based on a careless, apathic God or a bunch of those.
Now this special relation usually seems to be determined by meaning, by a goal, by a special, higher plan this Deity is having with Mankind.

Do we find any clue to a special, higher plan, to a unique possition of Man amongst all other elements of Creation? I can't say I see any proof of that. Nothing the Homo sapiens has achieved adds up in such a way that it can make us forgt the Shoah, the genocide in Rwanda, Hiroshima, the humanitarian conflict in Darfur, ... all the attrocities mankind has bestowed upon his fellow men and continues to bestow upon them.
The instant you start thinking of those events, the very notion of a Higher Goal becomes laughable.

3. A lot, if not all religions, are tautologies. The Qu'ran is said to be the word of God and is therefor utterly useless to proove the existence of (a) God. Because the belief in the existence of God is a premise to believe in the value of the Qu'ran. So, in order for the Qu'ran to be able to proove to you the existence of God, you must first believe in the existence of God.

The Bible doesn't do much better. In Genesis God starts to create the world and the universe and land and man, but the very question 'What IS God?' is never raised. Genesis can only proove to you that God is real if you already believe that God is real.

Most, if not all, proof for the many variations on the divine theme theme are defined and developped in works that already assume the existence of such a deity - all religions appear to be cyclic tautologies with very little persuasive arguments for those who watch the circle from the outside.

If there really was such a massive, all-defining force as a God floating through reality, why has He touched so little outside of religion?

I think you make a lot of very valid points and for the most part, I agree with you. Especially the fact that many religions rely on a belief in a god(s), but they never tell us what god is. So we end up mindlessly believing in something "just because". Believing in something "because that's what my parents told me", I don't think is a good enough reason to believe in it.

But I have the same problem with atheism as I do with other religions: it preaches CERTAINTY.

As I've said many times in this board, I believe that the existence or non-existence of a god or gods is unknown to humanity. And I only have one reason for believing that way: because we just don't know if God exists or not. It's that simple. Religion is nothing more than a set of unproven theories. Some people lean towards one theory, while others think a different theory is more correct. But no one knows for sure which theory (if any) is the correct one.

Religions claim to know the truth through divine revelation, so there really are no "theories," only "truths."

There is no way to prove that the supernatural does not exist, because for such a proof we'd have to rely on logic and science, and the supernatural, by definition, can simply bypass all of that if it really exists. A creationist was asked:

"If the earth is only as old as the bible says, how do you explain the fossils that have been dated back millions of years based on Carbon-14 dating? How did those fossils get there?"

The creationist answered: "God put those fossils there."

There is no rebuttal to that, if God exists, he can suspend all natural laws at will. All attempts to disprove the supernatural would meet with the same fate as the Carbon-14 argument. A religious person could tell you that you don't know what spheres God acts, because you only know what God lets you know. You might not be doing any of the things you're doing, maybe God just makes you think you're doing them.

What you can say is that there is no rational proof that God exists. Christians should agree with that, because they are taught to believe on faith, which is irrational.

You can also say that any Christian that claims to prove, or even attempts to prove, that God exists is a bad Christian, because Christians are taught to believe on faith, not on the basis of proof. I've always thought that the great thinkers like Thomas Acquinas, who attempted to prove God exists, should have been accused of heresy, or at least a sin against faith.

I've noticed that you start many threads like this, Andy,. It is generally good to question what you have been told. If you are looking for proof, one way or the other, you are never going to find it.
No one knows what God is. If they try and convince you otherwise, they are lying and trying to get you to buy something.
God is unknowable. God can not be defined. You cannot know the mind of God because you are not God.
There are stories in the Bible which describe God's wrath upon people for doing seemingly minor things. Why?
God is violent and vengeful in most of the Old Testament. Sometimes God shows incomprehensible mercy. Sometimes God demands that humans do what appears to be silly and ridiculous stuff. The Bible often seemingly contradicts itself. Why?
It isn't meant to be convincing. Actually, quite the opposite. It is full of shibboleths and codes.
First Faith then Proof.

Andy - why are you so obsessed with God......heheheh......?

You seem to think that it is an extremely rational, obvious proposition to deny the existence of God.....

You are preaching against God.....

Although I think it's very arrogant of humble, feeble humans to be so adamant about trying to deny a creator when they don't even know where they got these talents, this rationality, this reason from......some primeval quagmire - right!!!

I examined my beliefs and found that I don't believe in Jesus Christ (although I could be persuaded ), but I was left with a real faith in God.....it's a very strong faith......and your flimsy arguments are not likely to persuade me otherwise

it's quite simple - we have God as the progenitor of humanity - it's a compelling idea to think that someone or something created this universe......and we have called that thing 'God'.......

imagine a scenario where we have created robots, in particular a scientist called Graham Oscar Dodd.....who became the inventor of sentient artificial life.....all the robots are stamped with his logo G.O.D....he's the best scientist that ever lived......the androids and us live side by side for a couple of centuries, and then a biological 'bomb' and nuclear holocaust wipes out all traces of humanity including libraries etc, but some sentient robots survive and still walk around doing the things they always did - 'living' if you like.....building cities for them and their 'children'......

after a few millennia most of the robots think they were always there....or they just developed out of thin air - they don't remember humans, but some put their existence down to G.O.D. - they believe they were created by G.O.D. because they are all still stamped with the logo......but they are called irrational and hysterical......they start a small religion worshipping G.O.D. whom they call their creator, they don't remember him or know where they came from, but they're sure they didn't just develop out of thin air........they even have a preserved G.O.D. manual which is so archaic that it is deemed to be rubbish.....

the most vociferous of them scream that G.O.D. is a chimera, an illusion, an artefact of the imagination......and a great debate ensues, but nobody has proof either way.....hehehe


and that, my friend, is a parable!

another one....

imagine that you are the only human in existence among all the animals and beauty of the world.....

your parents died.....there is no other human alive......

you grow up calling yourself 'Andy'......

you question where you came from, why you exist....who made you.....how did you get there....?

you don't have any answers - you've never heard of God, but you know you didn't just appear out of nowhere.....

and so you live a life of uncertainty amidst the beauty of the world.......confused, appalled, yet grateful for your existence to something/someone - whoever put you (made you) on this amazing planet........

you look at the stars and you dream

this is only for the sake of argument, but imagine if what you believed came true

those who were atheists and believed in nothing - ended up nowhere with nada

those who were nihilists and preached a punitive form of nothing - ended up with less than nothing

those who believed in love, peace, charity, forgiveness and Jesus - ended up blissfully in a perfect world

those who were grateful to God for their existence, and were amazed at the eternal beauty of the universe - got to live forever with God happily.....

those who thought life is miserable and futile - ended up in an endless world of futility and misery

those who thought they were God's chosen people and followed his strict rules - ended up as God's children

if we are what we eat.....how much more so are we what we believe.....

this idea is just for the sake of argument - I don't think it is true (although it could be )

Jacob's heart bent with fear
Like a bow with death for its arrow
And he called out to God for help
And climbed to the top of a hill.

Wind swept the rain thro the wheatfields
In the orchard a nightingale sang
And the plums that she broke
With her brown beak
Tomorrow would turn into song

Then she flew off thro the rain
With the sun silverbright on her wings

Jacob put back his frown and sighed
And walked back down the hill
"God doesn't answer me,
And he never will.

ISN, that's a lovely trio of posts you contributed there!
I'm in but of a rush right now, so I'm not going to react to them directly.
But I'll give it some thought and get back at you soon!

In the late 1980s, God told me to kill my son. I told Him I would but I never got around to it. Since then I haven't spoken to Him. Well, actually I ran into Him once at a video rental store, and it was extremely awkward.

Were you both in the 'Adult' section? I heard he was a fanboy of Christy Canyon.

As I recall, He was browsing Dolph Lundgren films dubbed into Spanish.